Interview with saxophonist Kevin Flanagan on the convergence of poetry and jazz

July 3rd, 2014

kf1

Kevin Flanagan

__________

The convergence of poetry and jazz has long been a part of the counterculture, and it has always interested me. An early interview I did for Jerry Jazz Musician was with David Amram, once known as Jack Kerouac’s musical collaborator. In the interview he talked about Kerouac’s love of music, telling me that “he had an enormous memory for music and for jazz and the classics. He could sing the melodies from different Haydn and Beethoven string quartets. He was like an encyclopedia of music and classic literature from Europe. He also had an enormous knowledge of Buddhism. He had a tremendous knowledge of Judaism, as well as the writings from the Old and New Testaments as well as from the Mass. He had this knowledge of so many different things. When he was reading, I would submerge myself into whatever it was he was reading, and I tried to anticipate what would happen next.”

So, the collaboration of words and music is fascinating, and has deep and intellectual roots. It was the basis for my interest in an email I received a while ago from reed player Kevin Flanagan who, like Kerouac, is a Lowell, Massachusetts native. Flanagan’s Riprap Quartet recordings, he informed me, “feature compositions by the band setting the works of Pulitzer Prize winning-poet Gary Snyder” and is “active in working out ways of combining music, text and improvisation.” This especially got my attention since Snyder is part of the Beat Era’s San Francisco Renaissance, and was a contemporary (and friend) of Kerouac’s and Allen Ginsberg’s. The Quartet, according to the band’s website, looks to “explore some common modes of composing and open-ended improvisation, sometimes working with spoken word in the form of readings with contemporary poets, encompassing the freedom that typified the early period of the original Beat,” and who take their inspiration “from the Beat Poets, with their freewheeling lateral association, Miles Davis and his open-ended forms, and Kerouac’s idea of the ‘Holy Goof.'”

I wrote back to Flanagan and suggested we do an interview via email about his work, which follows:

JJM Who was your musical inspiration?

KF Strangely, the first album I ever bought was the soundtrack to 2001, and I was transfixed by the all the Ligeti tracks (Lux Eterna, Requiem, and Atmospheres), which badly twisted my 14-year-old mind. After that, a year or so later there was a New Yorker-hipster/beat who somehow washed up in the Nashua, New Hampshire public library in charge of music and film who started suggesting I listen to Miles, Parker, Coltrane and Weather Report. I would spend the late afternoons doing my homework listening to LP’s with headphones on as the library silently carried on around me to a very different soundtrack. Things progressed (perhaps progressed is not the right word; maybe degenerated) on from those two places. It was both exciting and lonely, as at that time all my other friends were into the Dead, the Stones and Hendrix.

JJM Did this musical inspiration lead you to understanding a connection between spoken word and music?

KF No, that came much later; it took me a long time to get poetry, and it wasn’t until I realized that poetry only connected with me when I heard it spoken. The paralinguistic element of the text comes out in the aural realization, and adds nuanced layers of meaning that can change with each realization, like music. And like music, there’s an exchange that occurs in a live situation; something becomes a participatory process rather than an object fixed in time. It’s also that idea of whether something is interior and text-based or a public, sounding experience that unfolds anew each time. I get very inspired hearing poetry read aloud — it suddenly lives; for me it’s the difference between studying scores and actually hearing the music.

JJM Who (or what) was your link to this music/poetry connection?

KF It was probably the whole Beat thing; I read Dharma Bums when I was in my mid-teens and it was my favorite book for ages. The descriptions of the readings that were part of the whole West Coast scene were something I was a little pissed-off having missed. I also realized at this point that Kerouac came from Lowell (where my parents grew up and I was born) and his relatives were still around our old neighborhood. (Strangely, but probably not too unusual for his particular social demographic, my dad only remembered Kerouac as a local high school football hero, not as a writer). But it wasn’t the Kerouac character I was inspired by (who seemed more irritating than anything else at the time), but the character Japhy Ryder. He seemed so God-damned cool, and Kerouac couldn’t hide his sense of wonder in writing about the guy. It took me almost eight years (doah!) to realize there was an actual person behind the character.

JJM Of all the Beat era poets you could create music around, why did you choose Gary Snyder?

KF To expand on what I said above, in my late teens I wanted to be that original Zen outdoors-y Eco-warrior who was good at everything (and probably, if I’m honest, still do), who realized you couldn’t “fall off a mountain.” I have repeatedly tried to get my Japanese up to scratch, (sigh) and still get out my zafu and sit every day (well, almost every day, or at least a lot, anyway, kinda). It was the idea that spirituality had to be approached through constant discipline, not unlike the practice of music. Not the expectation of a sudden moment of satori, but the realization that this is all there is, it’s all there in front of you, and to believe that everything is going to explode into endless bliss is a sad, misguided and ultimately destructive outlook. In a way, I feel very in tune with the Roman Stoics in that sense. A good read in that sense is Van De Wetering’s AFTERzen. Mia nichi, mia nichi: bit by bit, inch by inch. Musical mastery doesn’t just arrive out of the sky in a flash of lightning; it takes years of hard, patient work. And so does anything worth doing. Where’s the point in doing the easy stuff. Your efforts should look easy, but disguise a solid base of praxis.

JJM  Does Snyder’s poetry make you think of “the jazz life?”

KF Only in as so far that jazz was an “American” voice; the thing I like is the externality of his voice, giving a vision of our place in the land around us. He places all our (which is not ours as such) existence in the larger context.

JJM Who are other creators of this connection between music and spoken word (or poetry) that you feel did a worthy job of communicating the aesthetic? For example, David Amram collaborated on music with Kerouac, and the spoken word recordings of Ken Nordine stand out…

KF One of the things I noticed with a lot of attempts at accompanying readings was the dissonance of structures: it starts with Steve Allen and Kerouac reading from the TV broadcast and tended to carry on from there. Kerouac is reading free, open-ended prose, close to (if not actually – they tend to blur with Kerouac) poetic structures; Allen is playing a twelve-bar blues, which constantly cuts across the spoken word’s flow. This really doesn’t work. Allen is stuck in 4/4, in a strophic 3 x 4 bar call-and-response ( A-A-B) structure designed for something else altogether. It tends to make me cringe as I listen to it. True, Kerouac, Ginsberg et al used to goof to Dex and Wardell playing “The Chase” in ’47, trading choruses, which is of course based (very roughly) on 32-bar I-got-rhythm changes. Off their heads, and shouting extemporized lines over what now sounds fairly tame, but at that point in time it was a very wild thing that builds and builds. You have to imagine the Jazz at the Phil road show, with horn players honking, lying on their back in front of a baying crowd.

With the poets that I’ve worked with, I always try to subtly subvert their sense of metrics; I give them a pulse to play with, but try to have off-center rhythmic shapes (7/4, or bars that go 3/4-3/4-3/4-4/4, five-bar strophic shapes, et cet.) so they can’t settle into a standard 4/4, 4 bar shape, but have to show something new. I find they tend to flow more when they ignore the music and not try to force themselves into a particular shape — just work against a pulse.

JJM What about creating music to works of fiction? For example…Could you imagine writing jazz music to the novels of Kerouac, Pynchon, Roth, Updike or Salinger?

KF I did try to set a few songs with Kerouac’s prose for my CD Textile Lunch in the 90’s for the UK vocalist Chris Ingham, but had to change everything when I found I couldn’t get permission from the family to use the prose. I even sent my Auntie Francis up the street to go talk to the Sampas, but I didn’t realise that I had stumbled into the middle of an ongoing major copyright battle between the competing estates (which resulted in the slow demise of the Kerouac Center at the Lowell campus of UMass, who had wanted me to come over and do a gig before the funding dried up and the director left). Someday….

As far as the names mentioned above go, Pynchon would work, but I’ve never been a big fan of Salinger (as a local class warrior, I knew too many irritating privileged kids from Phillips Exeter, which somehow spoiled it for me), and I’m with David Foster Wallace as far as Updike goes. Nordine is a great with a fantastic voice and phrasing to die for, (he is a trained musician; I think it shows in the shapes and use of timbre) but maybe not a major poet.

Maybe the original Beat, Melville, has the perfect profile for creating music to? Eastern philosophies, he kept disappearing to sea, jumped ship in Polynesia, and bummed around New York.

JJM What is next for you?

KF Well, I just had a setting of the Diamond Sutra performed by a choir ( in my alter-ego as a composer), plus a piano trio, and I’ve been doing soundtracks for a friend’s project films. I’ve been asked to set some readings by servicemen’s wives of Wilfred Owen’s poetry as part of his WW1 centenary (which I must get on top of); plus I have a lot of material hanging fire for another quartet CD. There’s a half-finished series of songs I’m working on with the poet Malcolm Guite for an orchestral suite called the Holy Goof , which is about Neal Cassady’s last party in Mexico, with him counting the ties of the tracks between the two towns he didn’t quite get between on the Altiplano one rainy night, for tenor and chamber orchestra. And, writing arrangements for a friends sextet…and as a jobbing horn player, always available for weddings, Bar Mitzvahs….

__________

How Poetry Comes to Me
by Gary Snyder

It comes blundering over the
Boulders at night, it stays
Frightened outside the
Range of my campfire
I go to meet it at the
Edge of the light

 

*

A film introducing the Riprap Quartet

Music by Kevin Flanagan and Riprap Collective — poem by Malcolm Guite

Jack Kerouac on The Steve Allen Plymouth Show (1959)

Gary Snyder reads his poem “Riprap”

_____

Kevin Flanagan’s website

Read my interview with David Amram, Jack Kerouac’s musical collaborator

Share this:

2 comments on “Interview with saxophonist Kevin Flanagan on the convergence of poetry and jazz”

  1. This has been tried in the USA also and I have rejected it.

    Born in USA, Jazz is American music and any ”outsider” or an American who tries to
    screw it up such as the Africa .Africans , French etc is going for the jugular of the
    the very basic nature of Jazz.

    If you cannot play it like the Americans do (even in America there are some such
    as Anthony Braxton, much later Miles Davis, Teo Macero, Archie Shepp etc who
    massacred Jazz as most lovers of this music know it).

    Girish

  2. Nonsense. And of course Braxton, Miles, Shepp and Macero had the skills to have played play with Ellington or Basie, had they lived in that era. BTW Kevin Flanagan is American.

Comment on this article:

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Site Archive

Your Support is Appreciated

Jerry Jazz Musician has been commercial-free since its inception in 1999. Your generous donation helps it remain that way. Thanks very much for your kind consideration.

Click here to read about plans for the future of Jerry Jazz Musician.

In this Issue

Announcing the publication of Volume II of Kinds of Cool: An Interactive Collection of Jazz Poetry...The second edition of Kinds of Cool, an Interactive Collection of Jazz Poetry has just been published, and is now available for sale on Amazon.com. This edition is dedicated to publishing women poets from all over the world who share their personal passion for and relationship with jazz music, and the culture it interacts with. With a foreword by Allison Miller, one of the world’s most eminent jazz drummers, and photography and design by Rhonda R. Dorsett

The Sunday Poem

art by Jerrice J. Baptiste

The Sunday Poem: “The Red Bridge” by Jerrice J. Baptiste

The Sunday Poem is published weekly, and strives to include the poet reading their work...

Jerrice J. Baptiste reads her poem at its conclusion.


Click here to read previous editions of The Sunday Poem

Feature

Wikimedia Commons
Memorable quotes – John Coltrane (with a poem by Michael L. Newell)

Interviews

The A Love Supreme Interviews...A word about the classic 1964 recording, and archived Jerry Jazz Musician interviews on it with McCoy Tyner, Gary Giddins, Nat Hentoff, Ashley Kahn, Joshua Redman, Francis Davis and Michael Harper

Poetry

“Coltrane’s Still Speaking at 100” – a poem by Jason A. Hendricks

Editor’s Notes

“Where I’ve Been” – a brief update... A trip through Alaska, Yukon, Alberta, and British Columbia…

Poetry

photo via Wikimedia Commons
21 jazz poems on the 21st of September, 2026...An ongoing series designed to share the quality of jazz poetry continuously submitted to Jerry Jazz Musician.

Performance

The performance poet Emmett Wheatfall
A Letter from the Editor…On “The Weary Blues: Celebrating Langston Hughes and the Harlem Renaissance”A brief recap and photos of the February 7, 2026 Jerry Jazz Musician-produced performance of “The Weary Blues: Celebrating Langston Hughes and the Harlem Renaissance”

Short Fiction

photo by Daniel's Richard/via Pexels.com
Short Fiction Contest-winning story #72 – “La Fontaine,” by Ashlee Trahan...A broken familial relationship in post-WWII France finds a semblance of closure in a crumbling countryside estate.

Feature

photo of Bob Zieff via Blue Sounds Records
“The Well-Kept Secret of Composer Bob Zieff’s Chamber Jazz” – an essay & playlist by Bob Hecht...On the little-known jazz composer of 18 tunes, the most famous versions having been made during the 1950s – and many by Chet Baker

Poetry

photo of Rosemary Clooney via Wikimedia Commons
“And the Angel Sings” – a poem by David Nemerov

Community

photo by Rhonda R. Dorsett
In Memoriam: Michael L. Newell, 1945 – 2026...News regarding the passing of the poet Michael L. Newell, whose work has been published on Jerry Jazz Musician since 2015.

Poetry

“Dreaming in a Spacecraft” – A prose poem inspired by the voyage of Artemis II, by Robert Alan Felt...

Interview

photo of Billie Holiday by William Gottlieb/Library of Congress
Interview with Paul Alexander, author of Bitter Crop: The Heartache and Triumph of Billie Holiday’s Last Year...The author talks about the courage and resilience of the legendary Lady Day, and his outstanding book – an inspirational and revealing portrait of an iconic American, that, like his subject, exudes compassion and creative soul.

Poetry

photo by Peter Pettus/via Picryl
On music and freedom…Three poems by Daniel Warren Brown

Feature

“My Favorite Things” – a true jazz story by Uri Marc Nusinow...Discovering a classic (and life changing) jazz recording…

Poetry

photo by Nathan J. Hilton/via Pexels
“Pax Vobiscum” – a poem by Michael L. Newell

Feature

Book Excerpt from Crossing Bar Lines: The Politics and Practices of Black Musical Space, by James Gordon Williams...In this entire chapter from his book, the author explains how the trumpeter Ambrose Akinmusire expresses his political views and lived geography through his improvisational music, notably his critique of police brutality that has, as he states, “become a leitmotif throughout my albums.”

Poetry

Yves Moch, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
“Remembering Sonny Rollins” – a collection of poetry...Over the years, many poems have been published on Jerry Jazz Musician that were written in reverence of the man we refer to simply as “Sonny.” In the wake of his death, many more have been written. The unsolicited poems making up this collection is an example.

Interview

photo by Warren Fowler
Interview with John Gennari, author of The Jazz Barn: Music Inn, the Berkshires, and the Place of Jazz in American Life...The author discusses how in the 1950s the Berkshires – historic home to the likes of Hawthorne, Melville, Wharton, Rockwell, and Tanglewood – became a crucial space for the performance, study, and mainstreaming of jazz, and eventually an epicenter of the genre’s avant-garde.

Jazz History Quiz

Tommy Dorsey
Jazz History Quiz #189...This popular music singer once sang backup with her vocal group the Pied Pipers in Tommy Dorsey’s band and occasionally performed under the pseudonym “Darlene Edwards.” By 1955, she had sold more records than any other female artist, and one of her songs was the first record by a woman to reach #1 on the U.K. Singles Chart. Who is she?

Short Fiction

photo by ömeraliko/via pexels.com
“Strange Timings” – a short story by Terry Sanville...In the story – a short-listed entry in the recently concluded 72nd Short Fiction Contest – a jazz show is seen from different perspectives, one of which involves a long-ago romance…

Feature

Allen Ginsberg in 1979; photo by Michiel Hendryckx, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons
Memorable Quotes: Allen Ginsberg

Community

Ricky Esquivel/Pexels.com
Community Bookshelf #6...“Community Bookshelf” is a twice-yearly space where writers who have been published on Jerry Jazz Musician can share news about their recently authored books and/or recordings. This edition includes information about books published within the last six months or so (September, 2025 – March, 2026)

Poetry

photo via pxhere.com
“Midnight Blue” – a poem by Connie Johnson

Short Fiction

photo of Kyoto by Tom Lorber/via pexels.com
“Ken Namura’s Long, Strange Trip” – a short story by Peter Newall...In this story – a short-listed entry in the recently concluded 72nd Short Fiction Contest – a Western jazz musician living in Kyoto, Japan, befriends a Japanese pianist, learns about his experiences with acid in the 1970s, then discovers a curious secret about his life; that some trips can stay with you for a very long time.

Feature

photo by Laura Stanley via Pexels.com.
Trading Fours, with Douglas Cole, No. 28: “Little Samba”...Trading Fours with Douglas Cole is an occasional series of the writer’s poetic interpretations of jazz recordings and film. This edition is based largely on a documentary – They Shot the Piano Player – about Tenório Junior, a Latin jazz musician who only produced one album (1964) before he “disappeared” in 1976.

Short Fiction

Görkem Dalgıç/via Pexels.com
“Things I Almost Remember” – a short story by Ye Eun Lee...In this story – a short-listed entry in the recently concluded 72nd Short Fiction Contest – memory loss issues interfere with the life of a young woman scarred by a major auto accident…

Poetry

Poems on Charlie “Bird” Parker (inspired by a painting by Al Summ) – an ekphrastic poetry collection...A collection of 25 poems inspired by the painting of Charlie Parker by the artist Al Summ.

Contributing Writers

Click the image to view the writers, poets and artists whose work has been published on Jerry Jazz Musician, and find links to their work

Coming Soon

New poetry collections, Jazz History Quiz, and lots of short fiction; poetry; photography; interviews; playlists; and much more in the works...

Interview Archive

Ella Fitzgerald/IISG, CC BY-SA 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons
Click to view the complete 25-year archive of Jerry Jazz Musician interviews, including those recently published with Judith Tick on Ella Fitzgerald (pictured),; Laura Flam and Emily Sieu Liebowitz on the Girl Groups of the 60's; Tad Richards on Small Group Swing; Stephanie Stein Crease on Chick Webb; Brent Hayes Edwards on Henry Threadgill; Richard Koloda on Albert Ayler; Glenn Mott on Stanley Crouch; Richard Carlin and Ken Bloom on Eubie Blake; Richard Brent Turner on jazz and Islam; Alyn Shipton on the art of jazz; Shawn Levy on the original queens of standup comedy; Travis Atria on the expatriate trumpeter Arthur Briggs; Kitt Shapiro on her life with her mother, Eartha Kitt; Will Friedwald on Nat King Cole; Wayne Enstice on the drummer Dottie Dodgion; the drummer Joe La Barbera on Bill Evans; Philip Clark on Dave Brubeck; Nicholas Buccola on James Baldwin and William F. Buckley; Ricky Riccardi on Louis Armstrong; Dan Morgenstern and Christian Sands on Erroll Garner; Maria Golia on Ornette Coleman.